Comments for skydingo.com/blog/ http://skydingo.com/blog Devops and automation Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:10:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by kish http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-1116 kish Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:10:35 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-1116 Interesting, we've had better results when both dev and ops didn't specialize only in their roles. Building applications and trying to manage them together has eliminated the silo mentality. Interesting, we’ve had better results when both dev and ops didn’t specialize only in their roles.

Building applications and trying to manage them together has eliminated the silo mentality.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Konstnatin Kondakov http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-945 Konstnatin Kondakov Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:41:56 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-945 The configuration file needs to be clearly residing outside the code base and then be distributed by config management systems like: cfengine, puppet, chef The configuration file needs to be clearly residing outside the code base and then be distributed by config management systems like: cfengine, puppet, chef

]]> Comment on Meet your host by Paul Jenson http://skydingo.com/blog/meet-your-friendly-hosts/#comment-825 Paul Jenson Tue, 07 Feb 2012 01:59:28 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?page_id=183#comment-825 Thanks Christopher, you can reach me at: paPLUSLASTNAME@thatverywellknowngoogleemailservice.com Thanks Christopher, you can reach me at:

paPLUSLASTNAME@thatverywellknowngoogleemailservice.com

]]> Comment on Meet your host by Christopher Little http://skydingo.com/blog/meet-your-friendly-hosts/#comment-805 Christopher Little Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:28:12 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?page_id=183#comment-805 Awesome posts on DevOps, really advances the discussion IMO -- how can I reach Paul via email? Is it the same as in willie's post? Awesome posts on DevOps, really advances the discussion IMO — how can I reach Paul via email? Is it the same as in willie’s post?

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Willie Wheeler http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-801 Willie Wheeler Mon, 06 Feb 2012 06:11:08 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-801 I agree with the idea that automation is necessary but insufficient. One of the points that Paul makes from time to time is that it's important to pick the right automation targets--don't automate a process that shouldn't even exist in the first place, for example. One of the commenters on LinkedIn characterized devops in a way that really struck a chord with me: integrated process, tools and data. I think that is exactly right. Automation is better when it supports the right processes (smaller scale automation may not be particularly integrated, but it should be embedded in larger scale automation that *is* integrated), and it's better when it's driven by data from a single source of truth. I agree with the idea that automation is necessary but insufficient. One of the points that Paul makes from time to time is that it’s important to pick the right automation targets–don’t automate a process that shouldn’t even exist in the first place, for example.

One of the commenters on LinkedIn characterized devops in a way that really struck a chord with me: integrated process, tools and data. I think that is exactly right. Automation is better when it supports the right processes (smaller scale automation may not be particularly integrated, but it should be embedded in larger scale automation that *is* integrated), and it’s better when it’s driven by data from a single source of truth.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Paul Jenson http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-800 Paul Jenson Mon, 06 Feb 2012 05:20:43 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-800 Thanks for the reply Andy. Yeah, sometimes in trying to articulate a point in writing you need to be a little more dramatic than normal. DevOps will live strong and some large organizations will even be successful with it. I don’t think I really want to redefine the term automation. However, I do want to stress that simply automating the old process within the dev and ops silos does not solve any of the communication gaps. It adds value in speed, consistency and scalability which is obviously good! With the end-to-end automation, I want to point out the potential for much greater value. Let’s face it, getting dev and ops guys in a room to talk through their communication problems is useless effort. But getting a bunch of dev and ops geeks to focus on integration points for their automation --now that actually has a good shot at dialogue that will bridge some communication gaps. Thanks for the reply Andy. Yeah, sometimes in trying to articulate a point in writing you need to be a little more dramatic than normal. DevOps will live strong and some large organizations will even be successful with it. I don’t think I really want to redefine the term automation. However, I do want to stress that simply automating the old process within the dev and ops silos does not solve any of the communication gaps. It adds value in speed, consistency and scalability which is obviously good!

With the end-to-end automation, I want to point out the potential for much greater value. Let’s face it, getting dev and ops guys in a room to talk through their communication problems is useless effort. But getting a bunch of dev and ops geeks to focus on integration points for their automation –now that actually has a good shot at dialogue that will bridge some communication gaps.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Andy http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-792 Andy Mon, 06 Feb 2012 03:07:24 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-792 Really interesting post Paul - I like the emphasis on cultural/mindset change rather than just a tool-based approach. And I agree that productive implementations of DevOps might be beyond the grasp of many large organisations, but I don't see that as a failing on the DevOps side necessarily... as Deming says "survival is not mandatory" :-) On the automation side, you seem to be re-defining the term to mean "holistic end-to-end automation" which is a far wider, deeper usage of the term. I'd prefer to keep "automation" as the simple notion that it currently has but emphasise that it's necessary but by no means sufficient to achieve much of the promise of DevOps/Continuous Delivery. Really interesting post Paul – I like the emphasis on cultural/mindset change rather than just a tool-based approach.

And I agree that productive implementations of DevOps might be beyond the grasp of many large organisations, but I don’t see that as a failing on the DevOps side necessarily… as Deming says “survival is not mandatory” :-)

On the automation side, you seem to be re-defining the term to mean “holistic end-to-end automation” which is a far wider, deeper usage of the term. I’d prefer to keep “automation” as the simple notion that it currently has but emphasise that it’s necessary but by no means sufficient to achieve much of the promise of DevOps/Continuous Delivery.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Willie Wheeler http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-763 Willie Wheeler Fri, 03 Feb 2012 05:25:22 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-763 Brian, this is an important point. Dev tends to create change and ops tends to resist change. The trick (and somebody mentioned this on LinkedIn in response to this post) is to align team motivations so that features delivered count as a win for both the dev and ops team, and downtime counts as a lose for both dev and ops. It shouldn't be so hard to achieve that alignment--after all, you need solid infrastructure and ops to deliver value to customers, and downtime often arises from problems with the software itself. Brian, this is an important point. Dev tends to create change and ops tends to resist change. The trick (and somebody mentioned this on LinkedIn in response to this post) is to align team motivations so that features delivered count as a win for both the dev and ops team, and downtime counts as a lose for both dev and ops. It shouldn’t be so hard to achieve that alignment–after all, you need solid infrastructure and ops to deliver value to customers, and downtime often arises from problems with the software itself.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Brian Kozumplik http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-758 Brian Kozumplik Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:05:09 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-758 Another disconnect between Dev and Ops arises from different goals/external pressures, not just differing information sets as the article looks into. Ops generally measures itself by uptime and stability, scaling and metrics and monitoring coverage, and dev judges itself by features launched, initiatives coded or redesigned, and bugs closed. Different focuses naturally lead to people marching in different directions at times. Having one good "embedded" ops guy literally sit with the devs, attend and facilitate their buildouts, and understand their issues goes a long way. Thats called "devops" in some orgs. It works remarkably better than old school seperated ops/dev groups. Another disconnect between Dev and Ops arises from different goals/external pressures, not just differing information sets as the article looks into. Ops generally measures itself by uptime and stability, scaling and metrics and monitoring coverage, and dev judges itself by features launched, initiatives coded or redesigned, and bugs closed. Different focuses naturally lead to people marching in different directions at times.
Having one good “embedded” ops guy literally sit with the devs, attend and facilitate their buildouts, and understand their issues goes a long way. Thats called “devops” in some orgs. It works remarkably better than old school seperated ops/dev groups.

]]> Comment on Why DevOps is Doomed – Ops teams are lost! (1 of 3) by Ed Grigson http://skydingo.com/blog/2012/01/why-devops-is-doomed-ops-teams-are-lost-1-of-3/#comment-544 Ed Grigson Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:38:50 +0000 http://skydingo.com/blog/?p=472#comment-544 Great post which describes our daily challenges brilliantly. I'm an infrastructure guy learning more about Chef and Puppet with a view that that'll solve some of our deployment issues by at least tying together the code and infrastructure releases. As you righly describe I have limited knowledge of our development/release process or the code that's handled by it. The dynamic nature of both sides is creating new challenges - the difficulty is both articulating them concisely (as this post does) and having a solution to present. It's not going to be a quick fix. Great post which describes our daily challenges brilliantly. I’m an infrastructure guy learning more about Chef and Puppet with a view that that’ll solve some of our deployment issues by at least tying together the code and infrastructure releases. As you righly describe I have limited knowledge of our development/release process or the code that’s handled by it. The dynamic nature of both sides is creating new challenges – the difficulty is both articulating them concisely (as this post does) and having a solution to present. It’s not going to be a quick fix.

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